Speaker Well, for me, since I haven’t been working in this venue. I’ve become a writer for a while. I brought those two pieces. The screams, knowing that they were unsuccessful attempts as a gesture to Dick, in a way. And I surprisingly got some learning from it that I didn’t expect. But I had my druthers. I would have left at home because I knew it didn’t work. But I thought it was interesting. As a teaching vehicle for the class and it’s still painful because he comes in hard and tough and I’m okay with it. I think maybe some of the younger students have a hard time with that. It was fine. I’m just not sure I want to do this anymore. And I think I’m the only one in the class who can say that. I think everybody else is still very excited about where they’re going with it.
Speaker And I’ve had a voice with images for quite a while successfully. And I think I have a new voice now. And I’m not sure it’s visual. Real? Yes.
Speaker I am definitely at a crossroads and I’m learning that there is value in the written word is and that you can be visual with language. It’s so exciting for me and maybe I can marry the two and maybe not. And we’ll see for the school.
Speaker I just have a lot of issues with men, which I think women do. And I have men who are friends, and I’m always surprised at how accessible women are to their emotions and how inaccessible men are. And I hate to generalize. I don’t think that’s fair.
Speaker But I’m going to generalize. That’s my experience. So I want to see.
Speaker And I was sort of playing therapist, I guess, because I was a director. I sat them on a stool. It was a very confined situation.
Speaker And to see and they were embarrassed first and then to see if I could get them to get down to their kill Yoni’s, if you will, to let it out. And when they did, it rocked the walls.
Speaker It didn’t translate onto the film, unfortunately. But for me, it was just a learning experience. But it’s in they’ve got it in there. And wow.
Speaker It’s so stuffed. It’s so stuff. I mean, women, too. But I’m a good screamer, so I just wanted to let them come along for the ride. And I love doing it. And I think I will continue doing it in spite of Dick. Maybe not the same way. I think the wrong camera, but they love doing it. They felt great afterwards. They hugged me. It was cathartic to talk about that because I’m like, well, I just have it.
Speaker That’s Crossover’s thinks of himself as Andre Gregory.
Speaker Well, Dick is completely inaccessible emotionally, unfortunately.
Speaker I was hoping in this situation with him that he wouldn’t be.
Speaker But the truth is that he is protective and that’s too bad. And I feel a loss on that ground that I can’t be close to him that way.
Speaker He just this is 70 years of having the walls up is his venue.
Speaker It’s too bad. I mean, I like Dick a lot. I respect him in the highest order. But I’d like to talk on another level with him. But it’s not possible.
Speaker A little bit. Once again, the emotional journey that we saw today with you.
Speaker Well, the sunflowers are something I see Dick when Dick first saw the sunflowers. He admitted that he had nothing to do with him. And that’s the truth. He didn’t. It was my journey. And my early work is tough. Black Mike Bean compared to Diane Arbus, which is interesting. I mean, Amy says you’re more like my mother, you know, than I am. It was just a 180 because I went through a dark period that I won’t go into.
Speaker That made me come out the other end and to understand my connection with nature and my love of nature and the metaphor of nature for me in life.
Speaker And so Dick and I really came together on this sunflowers. I was shocked that he got it. He got it. And when you see, you might want to ask him to read you what he wrote in this book.
Speaker I was just floored that he understood what I was doing.
Speaker Not 100 percent, because it’s my perception, but much more so than I would have thought possible. And he left it at that. He hasn’t badgered ripped it apart. He just said this is this is a bit of OK. And I said, you know. So that’s that’s nice. We have a mutual respect on the ground, but I’m on another angle. He needs to control me in some way. Maybe not.
Speaker But do you feel that that was part of what was happening with the screen? Not just for that? I think it was valid. I know I know that those pictures don’t work. I know the sound.
Speaker I know the audio that emanated from these men in those pictures. And it just didn’t translate to the film. But for him to throw Oscar Levant in there, like, wait a minute. Yeah. I mean, I don’t have access to ask him live that and I’m just trying something.
Speaker Yeah. It was good as a teaching thing. But to say I thought he was a little overly tough to say these are boring faces. Who made you God?
Speaker You know, we’re all human. We all have value.
Speaker I mean, he devalued these two men in a way that was very upsetting to me, not for my ego, for these two men. They’re human and they have value. And I didn’t think they were boring. I thought one was kind of more average looking. The Harrier guy. But so what? You know, 80 percent of the world is average looking.
Speaker And let’s get with the program here and what’s wrong with that? So that’s that’s what we buttheads and that kind of thing. Were the pictures weak? Yes, I think they were. But I don’t like the way he accessed his criticism.
Speaker He’d be quite tough as well as inspirational. Everybody talks about the inspirational part of teaching very top as well.
Speaker Well, we’ve seen the tape. We’ve seen that happen, if not just with me, but. Inspirational.
Speaker POW, pow. As inspirational as a.
Speaker I’m I’m I’m I’m sort of hedging because, you know, I wanted to be inspired. I’m in. Ah, but I can’t say I’ve been inspired. In fact, in a way, I’ve been stymied a little bit because he’s a hard act to follow. I mean, how do you compete with a genius? I mean, how do you have your own voice heard and inspired? No, I don’t think that happened for me. I think I was inspired by my own process. And I just happens at the sunflowers came. I came to the class in great turmoil in my life, at a crossroads where I couldn’t do my old work anymore. So maybe let’s go back. Maybe he didn’t Spier me to go forth and do these sunflowers. Not directly, but I had a support group around me of other artists. I was alone and at a crossroads. So who knows? You know, I think that’s interesting. I think I write about it. Thank you for putting that thought in my mind. Yes, I. Perhaps so.
Speaker It’s wonderful to be with a group of other artists.
Speaker It’s the loneliest profession in the world.
Speaker Maybe prostitution.
Speaker I’ve always found that photography is so lonely, the kind of work I did.
Speaker So I love coming together and I’m the eldest and so sort of the matriarch of the group when I like.
Speaker We’re talking about taking to the mystical journey or the lack of spiritual journey.
Speaker When you are come together with Andre and then have you ever had that conversation with Dick? He can’t.
Speaker He just cuts it, although he did. I was out here in July. He wanted to read me the first draft of what he wrote about me for the book.
Speaker And we sat outside.
Speaker And he said to me, we walked. He put his arm around me, which is very unusual. He’s not accessible. And he said, Susan, I don’t know where I’m going to be in 10 years, what I’m going to be doing in 10 years. I said, you’ll be lucky if you’re alive in 10 years. You know, I’m always have this kind of sarcastic humor. But what he meant was I thought that was the most vulnerable moment he’s ever shown me that he didn’t really know.
Speaker How to be who to be 80.
Speaker And I think he’s struggling and I think he was honest today when he said he wants to really change his work. Do something else. He hasn’t shown us that he can with the work he showed today. It’s beautiful, but it’s really nothing new. So let’s see.
Speaker He’s got my full support. All right. Listen, I feel honored to know him. And I’d like to know him better.
Speaker He also said what she said. You can put it up to Diane Sawyer, and that’s not very good interview.
Speaker What the next during past history is all about. Well, you know, he said in that interview, you know, if someone can look at my picture, I don’t want to I’m quoting, I’m just sort of paraphrasing so can look at a picture.
Speaker I feel what I felt. I’m not sure that’s exactly what he said. I thought that was heavy.
Speaker I thought if he could just go with it, you know, he’d be on his way.
Speaker But he won’t. He just won’t. And the home death pictures today, Billy’s death pictures.
Speaker He isn’t able to realize. Everybody has a different perception of what they see.
Speaker That’s the real problem with him.
Speaker It’s perception. He was telling Amy what she was supposed to feel about those babies, and she was forthright enough to say, I’m sorry.
Speaker You know, I just took pictures in. She didn’t realize what she was doing, and I believe that.
Speaker I think we are vessels that comes to us and they are powerful. But I don’t think she set out with the intent of the power that they have. And that’s the truth. And but he doesn’t want that where he wants her to be way. He wants us all to be stars because were his babies. I guess maybe that’s unfair, but that’s his generosity. Absolutely. Absolutely. Some teachers don’t.
Speaker Many other things, like the work that you saw today that we’ve been looking at.
Speaker And what’s happened to some of the work over the last two or three years that people that you’ve been watching?
Speaker I haven’t seen enough growth, and I think Dick feels the same way, in fact, he had said that to me privately last spring when he was ill.
Speaker He came to a little gathering and he was upset. He said, I haven’t seen any growthier people play it safe and. Is it safe? You know, who wants to take that chance?
Speaker And I think Maxine’s the perfect example. You know, we all do what we do. I’m not sure I want to do what I do anymore. Go on, do something else.
Speaker I don’t know if he can. He wants to be the vehicle for change, and it doesn’t work like that.
Speaker Sometimes it does, but sometimes it doesn’t. It has to come from inside. And, you know, he can hit you over the head with a baseball bat if you’re not ready. And I and I I’ll reiterate what he said earlier.
Speaker And this isn’t, you know, famous Buddhist thing. When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.
Speaker And if you’re not ready. Ready.
